I am known around the workplace as “the heathen” (one of a few actually), we also have “the preacher”. I have written about this particular individual before and while he is a generally nice man, he does have his annoying qualities. One of which is to periodically approach me with a theological ‘challenge’ as he is convinced that one day I will come into the ‘fold’. I have never really believed in god despite being raised in a catholic home. I claimed I did for most of my childhood and adolescence but there was a never a complete cognitive ‘belief’ time where I can honestly say I was a Christian.
When my colleague approaches me with assertions of my future conversion that he can “see” coming, many times I will reply with the same, saying that one day I see him losing his faith. He doesn’t like this counterpoint when it is used, so periodically a new tactic is endeavored. He attempts to present a particularly ‘good’ apologetic argument he has discovered. Quite often these are rehashed and overused reiterations of the same, already rebutted, apologetics that are prolific all over the world wide web.
On the event of our most recent dialog I was quite busy with a project that was being done as a favor and when presented was already past due. I did not have time for a lengthy discussion that would eventually lead to my preacher co-worker shaking his head and stumbling off humming some comforting hymn in order to reassure his faith, so I decided to “nip it in the bud” as Barney Fife would say. When he approached me he began with a story about a friend of his that found Jesus on the way to jail (a story he has already related to me before), so I cut him off.
I asked him a paraphrased plain and simple query, one I have heard so eloquently postulated on the Non-Prophets and Atheist Experience podcasts. Below is the quote from one of the shows.
“One question I like to ask Christians that makes them wriggle is this: If you could go back in time and successfully rescue Jesus from the crucifixion, would you do it?I have yet to hear a Christian utter a yes that wasn’t then qualified into a no.
Me, I’d rescue the poor bastard in a heartbeat. Christians have no morals.”
So, here is the paraphrased version I asked the coworker:
“Speaking of Jesus, let me ask you this. You occasionally sing the gospel lyrics, ‘from the earth to the cross my debt to pay from the cross to the grave from the grave to the sky Lord I lift your name on high’. If given the opportunity, being present at the crucifixion and knowing what you know now, would you save this purported ‘saviour’ from murder? If you knew you could succeed and assuming you love him as much as you claim, would you retrieve him from torture and death, or would you watch him suffer and expire in order to win your so-called salvation? Which is essentially a selfish act.”
My coworker’s eyes seemed to expand three times the size of their original state, he said nothing and shook his head as he walked off. This time, he was not humming a reassuring hymn, but it seemed as if he was truly perplexed about what actions he would take.
I was able to return to the project at hand, without further interruption from ‘witnessing’ events.
“Your kindness for weakness I never mistook
I worried you often,yet you understood
That life is so fleeting,these troubles won’t last
Forever”
As a Worship Leader and a study of Theology, I would not have saved Jesus as it was His father’s plan that He die for us. I don’t assume that any one of us could have prevented the Father’s way. It is what He desired for us, wanting it, or not.
I’m more of an EX-religionist, actually, so I’m not the best defender of the faith. The answer here seems obvious, however, and that answer is NO.
If you accept the premise that God’s sense of justice demanded a sacrifice to redeem us sinners, then Jesus – because of love – voluntarily surrendered himself for that purpose.
If I were to stop this process I would be acting contrary to the will of God, then, as God the Father allowed the sacrifice of his son for the sake of humanity, and God the Son voluntarily surrendered his life for the same purpose.
So it is a total no-brainer …IF you accept the premise, that is. And your friend should know this if he knows jack about his faith. Duh.
Then again, I attended Bible college and became an ordained minister a few decades back. I learned a long time ago that the average Christian really does NOT know jack about his religion. Which is weird, when you think about it. It’s supposed to be the most important piece of information in the universe, right?
But the problem lies in the profession of belief that every life is sacred. If this holds true and they would only disregard this belief because of Jesus, then that would mean they would allow a Pol Pot, Stalin or Hitler to live while allowing for the death of the supposed holiest of holy to walk this planet.
@BGH Life being sacred does not prohibit voluntary sacrifice for a greater good, clearly. If this were so, Jesus could not have voluntarily surrendered his own life.
The examples of Pol Pot etc do not represent VOLUNTARY sacrifice, nor is there a greater good involved. So it those are incorrect examples on both counts. Try again.
The question is not did Jesus ‘willingly’ sacrifice himself. The question is, many believers profess deep all encompassing love for this character, and a value of all life, could they idly stand by and observe the crucifixion, with certain knowledge that an attempt to save him would be successful.If they wouldn’t save an innocent man with full assurance of success then they are surely conflicted christians.
If Jesus knew that he was going to be resurrected and go to heaven to sit next to himself for eternity, then it wasn’t much of a sacrifice, was it?
IT was a sacrifice. The horribleness of crucifixion and the weight of the worlds past, present,and future sins is quite a burden. By dying that death, he has sacrificed himself for our deaths. For that was essentially our damnation. We needed that sacrifice in order to have such an intimate and loving relationship with God, because he was conquering sin-the thing holding us back from Him.
Yes, knowing that he was to resurrect was I’m sure very reassuring. But how would you feel if you knew you were about to die the worst, most painful, disgusting death? The pain alone, almost makes it seen not worth it. Yet, he had to do it. It was a sacrifice. The most powerful one this world had ever seen.
If you need proof, look in the bible for the passages for the Garden of Gathemitee (sorry I don’t know how to spell it). If you think Jesus was gungho about dying I suggest you think again…
So I see a sort of different issue. In the question I see a different one: If you could eradicate one religion entirely, or change it drastically from what we know it now to be, would I? In other words you’re asking if I’d choose to be faced with a different history and future of Christianity, not merely if I’d choose to save a man’s life or not.
If the question is still not that simple. Who I am right now, I’d choose to save his life. If I was Roman back in those days and truly believed he committed a crime I would probably agree with the act of crucifixion, for different reasons than modern christians.
Still, thinking about it as Jesus being “just a man” who desired martyrdom, what difference would it make if I saved his life or not? If the path he chose in his life was to do and become exactly what happened, who am I to decree via interference what actions he, as a person, takes or not?
There’s really too many sides of that coin to come up with a general yes or no. Of course, I’ve never been one for hypotheticals. I tend to over-think them.
Hello sir. Can I invite you to read my blog, particularly my blog entry, To My Atheist Brother? I just want to hear your thoughts after you’ve read it.I will appreciate your comments/reactions. I’m very much interested in atheism and how atheism and theism can share the same philosophical paradigms despite their obvious disparate stances. Thanks!
the link is: http://paolobataller.blogspot.com/2009/01/to-my-atheist-brother.html
unMuse, I have to agree with you there. What first springs to mind for me is the answer – yes – I would save him if it was in my power. To save a fellow human from crucifixion (as who I am now and NOT a Roman or a Jew from that time period) would seem the most readily available repsonse for me. Save someone from THAT? In a blink of an eye.
BUT – it would so drastically change the map and face of the future and I could not be sure it would be for the better…in fact, my heart tells me it might very well be for the worse.
We don’t live in a utopia, by any means, but I’ve watched and read too many dystopic futures and presents played out in film and fiction for me to stop a crucifixion such as Jesus’ and play dice with the planet.
I would have no hesitation in halting the crucifixion if it weren’t for this dilemma. To imagine standing there, watching such torture of a fallible, ordinary human-being is beyond me – but that is because I do not believe he was the son of anyone except two equally fallible, ordinary human-beings.
But for a Christian, I think the answer must be no.
@BGH …No, that’s not correct.
Your QUESTION WAS, “If given the opportunity, being present at the crucifixion AND KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW NOW, would you save this purported ‘saviour’ from murder?” (Quoting YOU, with my own emphasis for obvious reasons).
Therefore, your response, “The question is not did Jesus ‘willingly’ sacrifice himself. The question is, many believers profess deep all encompassing love for this character, and a value of all life, could they idly stand by and observe the crucifixion.” — is simultaneously diversionary and irrelevant.
IF I am a believer, then “what I know now” is that Jesus voluntarily sacrificed himself for the world and that this was a necessary sacrifice to save us all from our sins (according to Christian doctrine).
The voluntary nature of the sacrifice AND it’s “greater good” purpose, is EVERYTHING – and that is what I would “know” now, as a believer… IF I were such a thing.
–
John 15: 12) My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13) Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
–
A major reason that believers value the character of Jesus (as you put it) IS, in fact, that whole SELF-SACRIFICE thing.
Sheesh, guy, I’m on your side but you need better arguments than this one. This one is a total fail. Sorry.
I’ll qualify this with the fact that I hate bible thumpers as much as anyone.
That said, it’s a pretty silly question. Within the Christian framework, it’s ordained by God that Christ should die–presumably meaning that no man could actually interfere with the situation.
Outside of the Christian framework, it’s a simple morality question–would you save an innocent man from torture and death? Any reasonable person would say yes.
It’s just as annoying with people combatively atheist as it is when people aggressively theist. Something to think about…
As an atheist who studies theology for a living (yeah, I know…weird…anyway), I think the correct answer is: The proper Christian moral response is “yes I would absolutely try to stop Jesus from being crucified, but he would probably stop me from doing so” I mean, if you read the Gospels, it’s clear that Jesus had many opportunities to not die on the cross but chose to anyway. Add that to the fact that, in Christian theology, Jesus is God than it seems like, despite my best efforts to prevent the whole “torture and brutal death” thing, Jesus would set stuff up so he was crucified no matter what.
In the same way of thinking, should Judas be condemned to hell as he is? Because it was his betrayal that was part of God’s plan and ultimately led to the salvation of mankind. I think it is rather hypocritical to condemn him to eternal damnation.
“if you could reason with religious people there would be no religious people” – House MD
The only thing more silly than bringing a prime-time TV character’s “ideas” into this discussion is that you don’t even interpret that character correctly. As we learn at the end of episode 515 “(Unfaithful”), House himself is ambivalent about faith.
Aside from it being a ridiculous argument (because it is not possible) as a Christian, yes, I would have saved him if it were possible. But it’s a moot point because He would have succeeded in allowing Himself to be murdered eventually.
Yeah dude, I would save Him!
RT
http://www.anonymity.eu.tc
Ethical questions really make you think. Christ’s followers did try to stop him but he stated to them that this had to be. Are they less or more of a christian becuase they let this happen, even viewing that all life is sacred?
Try these questions:
Question 1:
If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who
Were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had
Syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?
Read the next question before looking at the response for this one.
Question 2:
It is time to elect a new world leader, and only your vote counts.
Here are the facts about the three candidates. Who would you vote for?
Candidate A.
Associates with crooked politicians, and consults with astrologist
He’s had two mistresses. He also chain smokes and drinks 8 to 10 martinis a day.
Candidate B.
He was kicked out of office twice, sleeps until noon, used opium in
College and drinks a quart of whiskey every evening.
Candidate C
He is a decorated war hero. He’s a vegetarian, doesn’t smoke, drinks an
Occasional beer and never cheated on his wife.
Which of these candidates would be our choice?
Decide first… No peeking, then scroll down for the response.
Candidate A is Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Candidate B is Winston Churchill.
Candidate C is Adolph Hitler.
And, by the way, on your answer to the abortion question:
If you said YES, you just killed Beethoven.
Stupid argument.
You undoubtedly killed a Beethoven but he wasn’t the famous one. Ludwig was the second, not the youngest, child so the argument is totally senseless.
As only Ludwig and two of his brothers survived infancy, aborting a ninth would just be cutting out the pain of childbirth, the misery of illness and the heartbreak of another child’s death.
If God’s plan was for his son, Jesus, to die, I highly doubt anyone would be able to save him. Let alone jump in a time machine and impossibly go back in time to do so.
This one was a tough one…but interesting. In my opinion I think that if I could go back to that time, I would have tried to save Jesus. But in Matthew, Peter tried to get Jesus to not go to the cross and he yelled back at him, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” I believe that if I tried to save Jesus, he would have told me the exact same thing. But in the Bible it says that only after everything was done did they realize who they just killed.
You don’t know me, but I saw your comment on Digg.
I’m a pastor. I’ve been a minister for over 20 years. I was not raised in a Christian home; I came to follow Christ after doing the research (on both sides). I now work in a Presbyterian context (it seems to fit my understanding of theology pretty well).
I can say without hesitation:
OF COURSE I WOULD! For crying out loud, this is JESUS, after all! Didn’t he even PRAY for deliverance (so if we take the Bible as true, then we know he wasn’t thrilled with the idea) from the crucifixion?
I’m quite sure that my abilities as a human can’t thwart God’s plan… so if I saved Jesus from the cross, I’m sure that someone else would just come along and try and kill him again…
But as for me? Yeah, I’d take a phaser back and stun the crap out of everyone at the garden of olives when the soldiers came to take Him.
(Hey, if I get a time machine to go rescue Him, I should certainly be allowed a phaser. Just sayin…)
Nice story – I’m gonna remember that one the next time someone tries to save me.
Honestly you are sort of a dumbass, BGH.
Jesus willingly let himself be murdered to fulfill a PROPHECY. He told his disciples numerous times that he was going to clock-out, and they need to just accept it.
It was all part of a divine plan. You don’t want to be the asshole who ruins the plan right at the end.
@Pagani: “The voluntary nature of the sacrifice AND it’s “greater good” purpose, is EVERYTHING”…
So a god sacrificed himself to himself in order to allow himself to forgive his creations for breaking his rules. (Never mind that he could have simply created a world wherein none of his rules could ever be broken — seriously, it all sounds like the work of a lousy coder.) And I’m supposed to worship him? BWAHAHAHAHA!
Besides which, your claim that BGH’s argument is “a total fail” is quite incorrect — you dodged the original question and just went for argument by assertion. The only fail here is you.
PS, they tried to save him by cutting a soldier’s ear off remember?
Jesus told his disciples to gtfo and restore the dude’s ear.
No one could save them even if they wanted.
I am a devout Christian and a even more devout lover of my creator. I would do everything I could to save Jesus. Including sacrificing myself.
The others above who claim the faith and say no a fundamentally being heretical. It is my job to do as Jesus and his Father taught me and that would be to do everything I can to protect the innocent. No one has ever been more innocent than Christ.
It is not for me to decide what God wants. If despite all my efforts he still chose to make the sacrifice of his own son, who would not really be dying but would suffer terribly, I doubt I could do anything to stop him but I would try because Jesus taught me to.
Keep in mind I would not use violence because Jesus had earlier prevented that by his own hand.
but I would do everything else I could.
The heresy in the other answers is the presumption in knowing the mind of God and therefore allowing you to act outside of the very beliefs we profess.
Hey man I’m not a fan of religion but why are you suck a jerk? People can believe whatever they want to believe, to convince them otherwise would make you no better than the crusaders. It’s there lives, let them mess it up with their own delusions.
As a Catholic priest, I have no hesitation whatsoever in suggesting that the only moral answer is Yes! I am always called to do the next right thing, not to pretend to be able to psych out God’s will or plan.
I don’t like classical music and I wouldn’t have voted for any of them.
I’m sitting in my student union right now. As I literally finish reading this post, two other students come up and ask if I have a few minutes to talk about religion. They ask about my beliefs and then start talking about Christianity etc. After I start getting bored from all of their questions, I ask them the question from your post. They pause, say “Huh”, and then proceed to keep asking me questions. Guess they didn’t like it either…
According to your question logic, you profess that Jesus *Is* the son of God, and by my knowing what I know now – understands that the sacrifice he paid redeemed mankind and re-enabled a less-gnostic entry into heaven for his followers.
Yes, I would save him. But the actual fact is that Jesus would likely wave me off, because his death – being ordained; would have transpired in another way. Simon Peter got gangster during Jesus’ capture, and cut off a betrayers ear. Jesus basically waved him off and healed the guys ear before getting carried off to Pilate.
Documents indicate there were many plots to kill Jesus; – what’s to say that someone in 2114 didn’t travel back in a time machine and foil a couple of them? His death transpired anyway, and here we are.
I think the argument is built on a false premise. Obviously we cannot travel back in time so to use this as a premise is like asking “can God create a boulder he cannot lift”.
I think it is more pertinant to put things into a perspective that relates to today.
If your best friend was on death row for a crime you know he did not convict but yet is being executed tommorow by the state, what would you do? I doubt many of us would get a weapon and jail break him, we would try legal means, which may or may not be sucessful, or watch him die helpless to do anything.
To blame the early christians or any christian for not pulling jesus off the cross would be like blaming someone for not breaking a friend out of death row.
My argument that I always make to religious types (including my extremely devout parents) is this:
1. God is omniscient. He knows everything before it even happens.
2. He made Adam and Eve and put them in the Garden of Eden and then also gave them the Tree of Eternal Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
3. Being omniscient, God KNEW that they were going to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, he KNEW that they would sin and forever be cast out of Heaven.
So, the question: “Why would God perform such a cruel experiment on the entire human race?”
It’s bad enough that ALL of humanity has to pay again and again for the sin of one man and woman (original sin). This is like holding you personally responsible for a murder that your great, great, great, great, great grandfather committed 500 years ago and sentencing you to death.
But, the REALLY twisted part is that God KNEW that it was going to happen. In fact it was his “plan” to have it happen all along.
In my mind “God” is nothing by a cruel kid with a magnifying glass who is torturing ants for fun. What kind of loving God would create something that he knew was going to fail (and then turn around and blame the ants for the failure).
Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. If you really want to bake their noodle — bring up Genesis 6:1-4 and ask about the Nephelim. The Bible actually tells us that angels (or non-human beings) came down and had sex with humans. It gets mentioned in about 4 verses. Then it gets conveniently brushed under the rug never to be mentioned again in the rest of the Bible. If you ask religious people about it they brush it off as non-important or irrelevant to the overall message of the book as a whole.
Bullcrap! If aliens (or angels, or whatever) came down and had sex with our race and produced offspring that changes EVERYTHING that we ever knew or believed in. All of it is a bunch of lies. And, if the Christians don’t want to talk about the Nephelim ask them about The First Book of Adam and Eve, The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, or any of the other “Apocrypha” which were left out of the official version of the Bible.
Yes, I would want to.
Yes, I would try…at least I hope I would.
But no, Christ wouldn’t let me. He wasn’t forced to die, he gave himself…he was selfless and sacrificial.
Does that make sense? no…no, not at all and that’s why he’s God and I’m a believer. An underserving, imperfect, constantly failing believer.
Thank you God for your grace and mercy and even knowing me, and knowing what was ahead you sent your son anyway.
If I were to answer you as my very very rough shod Christian upbringing instructs, I would say this:
It is only because he willed himself sacrificed for our sins, are you able to ask such a morally perplexing question. Implying that we gain our morality from Christianity, God, and the like. Had he not, you would not choose to save anyone from a similar predicament. In other words, I’d challenge the premise of your question.
If I were to answer you in realist terms, then “sure” would suffice.
I have a question for you. If you knew that the person about to die that you could save would soon rise from the dead and save the planet would you save him from his death?
Of course not. what would be the purpose of saving someone that is going to rise from the dead? especially in this instance where here in the future we know that he rose from the dead.
And if one was to argue that he should be saved from the torture that led to his death then it is a matter of weighing the torture of one man versus the salvation of a huge group of people. The obvious utilitarian answer here is to save the larger group, and i believe that utilitarianism is officially a moral system.
I’d save him without a second thought. It doesn’t matter if I’d be killed or tortured by the Romans, it’s still the right thing to do. GOD’s plan to have Jesus die for our sins isn’t something I have the power to change. If I saved him from the cross, he’d die for our sins in some other way (then we’d all be wearing something else besides a cross to broadcast our faith). GOD’s will will always be done, but he’d want each of us to act in a compassionate and ethical way.
I never did get that whole bit about Jesus dying for our sins. If there is a debt that has to be repaid (not that I get that part either) then just cancel the debt. It’s as though there is some power higher than God that requires some sort of balance so God gives them Jesus. But there is no power higher than God so why didn’t He just cancel the debt?
Someone is going to chime in that it was to show His love for humanity. Um…that’s nice but He could’ve just told us, “Hey, that debt you owe which you didn’t even know you did…well I love you so much that I cancelled it.” And we’d be like, Thanks, God.
No no, I think the story that is told is simply craft to fit some facts and doesn’t make much logical sense.
Another question to ask Christians:
“Why do you live in a nice house? And have a nice car? And have money in your bank account? Why do you have nice clothes? Why do you buy TVs, stereos, comfy furniture, and household goods?”
Didn’t Jesus tell his disciples to sell everything they own and go help the poor?
Mother Theresa wasn’t just following the faith she practiced what she preached. She gave up everything she had to help people less fortunate. She did more to further the ideas of Jesus than all 15,000,000 “believers” in America combined.
You people are dancing around the obvious.
Obviously, Wolverine would win that fight.
Humans can’t in this “sense” SAVE any one. Burning building, sure. War time: Snuff enemy, rescue buddies, etc. Right. All that, save the cat stuff. Sure. But, this? Something political and all that? Philosophical? Hunter S. Thompson couldn’t be “saved”. He died 4 years ago today. If people want to “kill” them selves like Jesus did, then, NO. We couldn’t save the man, woman, child bent on self destruction. I wouldn’t follow any one like this either. What kind of example is this to any “productive” human being out for themself or for to leave the world a better place when they leave? How to improve the world? You will only make matters worse. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It’s a moot point any way, you could never know. It’s done already, if even you believe that any way. Done and done, way back when.
okay warp me way back time then i’ll decide
I am a Christian. Here is my answer to the question.
I know for a fact that if I went back in time to the day that Jesus died, and I stood among the crowds that were in Jerusalem at the time for passover, I would -not- save Him. Many of the things that Jesus says hurt along if you really look at them. I would say that there are time that I down right hate Him.
However let me respond with two quotes from C.S. Lewis:
“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” — God in the Dock
“The great difficulty is to get modern audiences to realize that you are preaching Christianity solely and simply because you happen to think it true; they always suppose you are preaching it because you like it or think it good for society or something of that sort. Now a clearly maintained distinction between what the Faith actually says and what you would like it to have said or what you understand or what you personally find helpful or think probable, forces your audience to realize that you are tied to your data just as the scientist is tied by the results of the experiments; that you are not just saying what you like. This immediately helps them realize that what is being discussed is a question about objective fact — not gas about ideals and points of view.” — Mere Chrisitianity
My Question has always been “Knowing what you know now about Jesus’ alleged ’sacrifice’ — why aren’t you thankful to Judas for helping Jesus do it?”
If God’s plan is truly unknowable to us simpletons, this is all a pointless exercise. Eat, drink…be merry.
I will say if I were all-powerful, I would have just created everyone in heaven to start with. But that’s just me.
I’d love to sit here and debate you, but you’re obviously a genius. I wouldn’t stand a chance. You know all and I will do your bidding.
Let me guess: You support pro-choice? It’d be really cool if I could go back in time and convince your mother to abort you.
Obviously I don’t mean that. I actually don’t think the government has the right to govern such moral decisions. That’s neither here nor there. But you get the point.
And no Jesus did not tell people to sell everything they own. It’s fine to not believe. But do not enter into an argument which you know nothing about.
I’d stick another spear in the dude… christ be with you motherfucker 0:-)
I am going to withhold my religious views and approach this purely scientifically. This is a dumb question. The only reason we know that Jesus existed are the writings about him and his followers. Both of those exist because of his death, if he didn’t die he’d be just another person. So taking that into account, if anyone traveled back in time to save Jesus from his death and were successful then his writings and followers would not exist in the present and the traveler would not know who Jesus was. Since the traveler would not know who Jesus was the traveler would not have the choice to travel back in time in the first place. This is what we call paradox… next stupid question please? actually, nevermind, I don’t like stupid questions.
You should watch this episode of Mad TV where the Terminator is sent back in time to stop Judas from betraying Jesus. Every time the Terminator kills Judas, Jesus revives him. It’s pretty funny. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJKye7J3-54
and then when he rose three days later…i’d stick him with another spear…and he’d be like….god damnit….
ITS NOT An EVENT THAT CAN be changed you morons.
You cant choose to have saved jesus anymore than you can choose whether the sun will rise or not. May I suggest you Read “thecase for Christ” by lee stroebel.
if the passion of the christ is anything to go by jesus was a parniod skitzophrenic with masocastic tendencies to found the religion around a guy who would be locked up if he was alive today is a bit messed up is it not?
…interesting,… you do realize by saying that Jesus knew it was coming and went willing, he in fact committed a sin. In fact, you could likely successfully argue that Jesus, in preaching and testifying in a manner that he knew would incite the local government to take action, and that he knew what the consequences would be, that he had a direct hand in his own death, which is essentially suicide – the biblical equivalent of Death by Cop…
So if it’s not a Sin to let him die, given a certainty that you could save him, then tell me at least that suicide is still a sin…
God’s grace, love and purpose were revealed on the cross through the (bodily) sacrifice of His Son. The only person or being who could have prevented it from happening is God. Christ himself couldn’t have prevented it. As He said, “Thy will be done”.
“God so loved loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life”
It is through Christ’s death and resurrection–and all of the accounts swearing to the truth of it–that we believe in God. They are the singular source of our faith, outside of personal experience.
Atheists (of whom I was one) have to ask themselves this: How could human being(s) design something like Christianity? What alterior motive was there for Jesus and His hodge-podge of disciples to conduct themselves as they did? After the resurrection and Pentecost, the disciples (a few fishermen, a couple of servants, a tax collector, and a handful of others from very humble beginnings, aside from Paul), aided by the Holy Spirit, set the Roman world on fire with the gospel message. This is not denied by anyone.
So how could it have happened? To believe in Him and spread the gospel meant they’d be submitting themselves to ridicule, torture, imprisonment, and often death–and most of them knew it beforehand. Yet, through them, the Word sprang forth like a torrent.
This is my proof. I don’t think God wants us to come to Him through scientific or philosophical reasoning; He wants us to come to Him through faith in Jesus Christ. He gave us free will, and our decision to believe on faith is essential to becoming a Christian.
I used to scoff at the barely-literate clap-trap from a lot of people calling themselves Christians on the web and elsewhere. Many of them are blinded by pride, and they’re distorting the true meaning and message of Christianity. We’re much better served–Christians and atheists alike–by just reading the Bible with an open mind.
According to Kyra this murder was “God’s plan”. So in that case, if someone were to come upon someone torturing and killing her would it be in their best interest to let the events continue, in case God had plans for her too?
(This is in no way meant as a threat against that user. It is merely a counterpoint to her statement.)
anyone who insists the “God’s plan” answer is a moron. the question was about CHOOSING to save Jesus or not, not if you would be able or unable to save him.
just because it was “God’s plan” for Jesus to die and that there’s really nothing you can do to stop it from happening, you’re just gonna stand there and watch the dude suffer?! that is almost like saying you’d contribute to Jesus’s death to keep God’s plan intact. kinda like, if there were two guys who travel back in time, one is a devout Christian and the other is just a non-religious good-natured guy, and the the do-gooder tries to save Jesus, the Christian, sticking to God’s plan, would stop the do-gooder and possibly kill him?
anyone who insists the “God’s plan” answer is a moron. the question was about CHOOSING to save Jesus or not, not if you would be able or unable to save him.
just because it was “God’s plan” for Jesus to die and that there’s really nothing you can do to stop it from happening, you’re just gonna stand there and watch the dude suffer?! that is almost like saying you’d contribute to Jesus’s death to keep God’s plan intact. kinda like, if there were two guys who travel back in time, one is a devout Christian and the other is just a non-religious good-natured guy, and the the do-gooder tries to save Jesus, the Christian, sticking to God’s plan, would stop the do-gooder and possibly kill him?
God is that you?…No your just losing your mind
Here’s another question, along the same lines as yours.
Imagine there were a crowd of people at a party your that best friend in the world was hosting. Into this crowd is rolled a live grenade, which will explode any second. The only two people who see it are you and your best friend/host. He starts to dive forward onto the grenade.
Due to the mechanics of it, you could catch him and pull him behind you, protecting him from the blast at the expense of your body when the grenade explodes. Such an uncovered explosion would fatally injure basically everybody in the crowd.
…except your friend, who, as it happens, is wearing two the best flack jackets known to man, and would only spend about a week in the hospital after diving the grenade, and would be the only one in the entire crowd who wouldn’t die if you pulled him behind you.
Yes, I would very much Like to save him from the large volumes of pain and inconvenience he would be about to endure, but I would much rather visit him daily for his week in a hospital (my life) than have him have to visit the graves of everybody in that crowd for the rest of his life (eternity). After all, that’s why he chose to dive onto the grenade.
I understand that you’ll probably never believe, yourself, but that doesn’t mean that our belief makes us bad people, even though doing the right thing makes us uncomfortable sometimes.
The perplexing part of your question to Christians, and I am one, is that Jesus was meant to be Crucified. Therefore, there would be no way for anyone to save him. You say that it would be possible, but faith says that it would not be. Therefore, you are more or less asking “Do you have faith in God, and his plan for his only son to die for you?”
Ha! First “spiritual” reason I’ve heard why “changing the past” in “time travel” can’t be done.
See, I just don’t get the atheist folks…
Unfathomably huge universe… countless mysteries yet to be learned about let alone discovered…
and the same vastness mirrors down in scale too…
So you’re only willing to “believe” in recently documented empirical experiences; and most of it experiences YOU will NEVER personally experience… so it is “belief”, yes, belief passed through some variation of a scientific method, of which there is not only one.
And yet when a group of people a couple thousand years ago experienced something that had not happened before, and documented their repeated multiple experiences of it, before a “scientific method” even existed, and shared it, you write that off as “fairy tales” or “myths” even when their written experiences don’t read or compare like any “stories” previously written.
Heck go back before Christianity, and see how pretty much every culture goes through a “animist” phase, belief in a spirits…
You choose to belittle their experiences and think they are just neurologically imagining it; whereas I choose to give their human experience the benefit of the doubt, and accept that maybe there is something they are actually experiencing…
And then all the findings from quantum physics…
I guess I just can’t fathom the probabilities against our sentient consciences even existing to then go write off every experience that can “yet” be tested with a scientific method; especially when so many people experienced it.
You know its not like L. Ron Hubbard went and sat in a cave, and came out with Islam. Christianity is not like that.
I suppose if you want to pretend a bunch of people got together to concoct a “lie” to bring “hope” to the world, then nothing I say will mean anything.
Oh well, I’m not sure why I allow myself to be sucked into these comment-conversations…
Have a good night.
i would let my friend dive onto the grenade and die.
then after around 2000 years a descendant of mine would go back in time and prevent my friend from dying by either diving onto the grenade himself or arrive earlier and find out who threw the darn grenade and stop that person.
I wouldn’t, because if he was god he will rescue himself and wouldn’t die.
But to answer your question, yes, if it was somehow possible, as your question describes, I would.
And I would for anyone else whom I cared for in the least.
“I wouldn’t, because if he was god he will rescue himself and wouldn’t die.”
Atleast in my sect of Christianity, Jesus != God != Holy Spirit, they are separate, but the same.
Perhaps it would be best to put it as, they are a being split into 3 (In this case, God took a small part of himself to make the Holy Spirit and Jesus).
baKicken07: that is the only proper answer to this, regardless of religion. the question was if you WOULD save jesus and yet these bible protector insist that you COULD NOT so you SHOULD NOT.
baKicken07: that is the only proper answer to this, regardless of religion. the question was if you WOULD save jesus and yet these bible protector insist that you COULD NOT so you SHOULD NOT.
Jesus asked the Father if this cup could be removed from Him and then resigned to go ahead because it had to be done. We need a sacrifice for our sins. No one could have saved him because it was God’s will. At the cross they said he saved others, why doesn’t he save himself. He could have, but then there would not have been a sacrifice for our sins. Some day atheists will stand before God and be judged, but believers won’t have to stand before God because they have already been judged innocent for accepting God’s sacrifice.
Grim: If you can’t, you can’t.
If they said that they would, but knew that they couldn’t, that would be a lie.
So as I said:
Yes means:
a) You are talking hypothetically, and entertaining the questioner.
b) You don’t realize that you couldn’t save him no matter what since it is preordained.
No means:
a) You think that no matter what the question asks, the bible over rides (Rather stupid when talking to an Atheist/Someone not of your faith)
b) You are an ass.
What does it matter? The Christian faith isn’t just about making “moral” decisions, whatever those might be.
Fireside:
“but believers won’t have to stand before God because they have already been judged innocent for accepting God’s sacrifice.”
Not exactly true. You have to not only have true faith, but live by it as well. They are not a package deal.
Grim>> You didn't read very carefully, did you? It's not a question of the Friend dying or everybody else dying, it's a question of the Friend spending a week in the hospital or everybody else dying.
Yes, preventing the grenade from being activated is the ideal solution, but that's more analogous to asking if you'd go back in time to stop Adam & Eve from eating the apple. An interesting question in its own right, but not really relevant to the question originally posed.
Your question is really no different that this: If you knew with 100% certainty who the Anti-Christ was today, knowing the evil, death and despair he would soon bring to the world, would you kill him?
Even though attempts to kill the Anti-Christ have made for a number of entertaining movies, it’s a flawed premise and a loaded question. If you believe scripture – and surely you must if you’re convinced someone is the Anti-Christ
– then you know too that you can’t kill him before he fulfills the prophecies of scripture. If you can kill him, he clearly isn’t the Anti-Christ.
The same is true for your question about rescuing Christ. The Bible is clear that his sacrifice was prophesied and ordained by God. If you could stop it – you were certain of success, as you said – then clearly it wasn’t ordained by God and the person you’ve saved is not the Messiah.
So no, I wouldn’t try to save him knowing what I know now. And I won’t be trying to kill the Anti-Christ, should I figure out who he is.
Believer here.
I would, without hesitation, attempt to save Jesus from being crucified. However, I am not so vain as to think that I could prevent it without God’s hand. God chose that way, so it is the way that we know, but I if Jesus was saved from being crucified, God would provide another way to receive salvation, even if that meant we had to continue to make burnt offerings.
The answer to the question is mu. Man cannot change the will of God.
Not a tough question. If you remember the prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane, you have insight into Jesus’ reluctance to have to suffer yet His resolve to save those He loved.
With that in mind, a person could certainly try to save Jesus, but my bet would be that the attempt would fail because of the sheer political anger and prejudice Jesus’ claims generated and Jesus’ intent to deal with Sin.
He claimed to be God, Lord of all things including you. That would get any person riled up yes?
So there, as a Christian, I would imagine wanting to not see Jesus suffer but if He told me to back off I would.
Depends… I would weigh the quality of the evidence for the charges made against him. Assuming the punishment doesn’t fit the crime, I would save him. God’s will is not my problem. Anyone that can create the universe in less than a week, should be able to forgive sin with a wave of their hand, not some vulgar child sacrifice. Tacky. That aside, God can sacrifice his son on someone else’s watch.
a less rediculous version of the question is “what if the romans and jews chose not to crucify jesus?” who knows.
Here’s another test.
Let’s say you believe that Christianity propagates more misery than direction in humanity. This test could only be for you, whoever you may be. So let’s say you think Christianity is something the world would have been better off without. If you could go back far enough in time, would you kill Jesus before anyone knew of him?
As for saving Jesus and actually getting away with it, then I’d certainly do it. That would have to be God’s plan as well, right? In fact, if it was just that easy, I’d kind of be flipping God off if I didn’t save him.
I’m always encouraged when someone is genuinely puzzled. It means they haven’t succumbed yet to the idea that they’ve got it all figured out, like me.
Here’s another test.
Let’s say you believe that Christianity propagates more misery than direction in humanity. This test could only be for you, whoever you may be. So let’s say you think Christianity is something the world would have been better off without. If you could go back far enough in time, would you kill Jesus before anyone knew of him?
As for saving Jesus and actually getting away with it, then I’d certainly do it. That would have to be God’s plan as well, right? In fact, if it was just that easy, I’d kind of be flipping God off if I didn’t save him.
I’m always encouraged when someone is genuinely puzzled. It means they haven’t succumbed yet to the idea that they’ve got it all figured out, like me.
rjbowlin:
Sure, he could have. But what kind of weight would that carry?
Surely a sacrifice as heavy as your only begotten son is a lot more potent a message than a simple “Hey guys, Imma forgive you this time, don’t fuck up kthx”.
If the man, in fact, ever lived and I had the opportunity to prevent his murder, of course, I would. My highest value is my own life and, because I feel genuine empathy for other life, I value highly that other life as well. I know nothing of any “after-life” and I’m quite certain no one else knows or can know of it either. What’s essential is the here and the now and what we do with it before it’s lost. I’d save a life which, as I see it, is also saving my own. This has nothing to do with spirits or those alleged supernatural spooks. It has nothing to do with any assumed “sin” on my part for which I need forgiveness or “salvation”. No. It is life valuing life. No more than that, and certainly no less. Neither the delusions of others regarding such things, especially those of the poor fool thinking he’s “saving the world” by sacrificing himself to brutality, have anything to do with my decision. I believe life ought to be preserved if at all possible. Period. If the happiness of that life can be enhanced and ensured in the process, so much the better.
There are none more ignorant and useless then those that seek answers on their knees with their eyes closed.
If god had his son crucified for the sins of man, then someone needs to call CPS, because god is a shitty father.
I can’t believe that these comments come from supposedly mature people. Even if you don’t believe in God at least clean up your language and maybe you would be heard in a civilized manner.
Vulgarity is for people who don’t think very much. That being said; I also don’t like Bible thumpers especially at work. There’s no call for that kind of behavior. That person is stealing time from their employer.
As for the validity of Athemism: this is just a form of denial because somewhere, sometime you go got upset or got your feelings hurt. So now you rationalize your negativity by being critical of anyone who doesn’t agree with you.
God is real and loves all of you. However; he has also given us all the right to choose. If you don’t believe then that’s your problem not God’s and not true Christians.
Can god microwave a burrito so hot that not even he can eat it?
If I had the capacity for time-travel, I doubt I’d do something as pointless as rescuing Jesus from being nailed upon the cross, especially since The Father wanted His Son to be brutalized by the people he’s supposedly meant to be ’saving’.
It’s about as useful as turning the other cheek to a bitchslap, you’re still gonna be hit.
That said, if it was possible to stop him from being made an example by God’s decree (hey, you’re manipulating the time/space continuum, it’s fair if he removes his invulnerability tag) at least that would save us from the eternal guilt-trip about our afterlife deficit.
I have always been leery at believing religious texts created so long ago by the very beings that are stated to be faulted by the God the texts are talking about. It also concerns me that people follow religion so blindly to the point that they can’t see anyone else’s beliefs and preach prejudice. I am agnostic and not atheist but I have no real clue whom my creator really is and I won’t until I actually have to meet him. Think about this: if David Koresh (see Waco, Texas massacre) existed 2000+ years ago and events were described differently from the telephone affect (like the game you played as a kid) couldn’t he have been considered the lamb of God as well? Even with that being said, I believe that religion is also a good thing because it sets moral ethical principals that promote humans well being. Acceptance of others religious differences is the only way this world is going to work for humanities future.
Naumadd,
Didn’t the sufferings of Ghandi, MLK, Mandela, Bonhoeffer and the Christian saints and their followers make their peaceful messages far more potent? Didn’t their actions provoke extraordinary change for the better for millions of people in their times and places?
We can’t answer evil with evil; and if evil has taken root to such an extent as to render political/legal solutions impossible, the only means for change is self-sacrifice.
You said, “I believe life ought to be preserved if at all possible.”
How do you intend to do it? We can empathize with those in need, but where does that leave us?I believe you have a good heart; but those of us who haven’t preserved any lives need to learn what those in the above list understood: without God, real love–the kind they exhibited–is not possible. I think every one of them would attest to this.
Jon B
Dang. I thought there was gonna be some interesting tidbit. What a waste of a click. If you are Christian, you can’t believe that you could somehow thwart God’s will.
Please think about what you are about to post before you do. Maybe hit up the Jesus wikipedia page, that would have probably answered your question.
Jesus wasn’t a game of telephone. He had disciples. And unlike all the other disciples of that time, after he was killed, they claimed him to be resurrected and kept preaching. Most of them were martyred for their proclamations.
For me the life of Paul is the greatest testimony to the reality of Jesus’ ministry. A Pharisee, rising star in Jewish circles at the time, had a stark conversion and lived an extremely hard life because of his convictions.
Read the texts, learn the history, you don’t have to wait for death to meet God.
Jesus wasn’t a game of telephone. He had disciples. And unlike all the other disciples of that time, after he was killed, they claimed him to be resurrected and kept preaching. Most of them were martyred for their proclamations.
For me the life of Paul is the greatest testimony to the reality of Jesus’ ministry. A Pharisee, rising star in Jewish circles at the time, had a stark conversion and lived an extremely hard life because of his convictions.
Read the texts, learn the history, you don’t have to wait for death to meet God.
Well I’m glad you asked since I am uniquely qualified to answer that question.
I had invented the time machine and even succeeded to change a lot of things such as stopping many cruel dictators from coming into power, most famous of which are probably Hitler and Stalin. When I went back to see if Jesus existed (and becoming a Christian in the process) I saved him as well by successfully manipulating the key positions of Jewish leadership at the time. On the way back to the present however, the time machine malfunctioned badly, I was flung with a significant amount of force and lost consciousness.
The next thing I remember I am lying in my bed, perfectly fine, with no time machine and no memory of how to create one. Googling led me to this blog, so was this just a vivid dream or…? I realise this might seem like a stupid question, but you like those if I’m not wrong?
counterfactuals are mostly just ridiculous. especially when it comes to this kind of situation.
I’m impressed by one major difference between Christian responses and atheist responses.
Christians have some of the most long winded complicated arguments I’ve ever seen.
Whereas the atheists seem to be saying “Help the poor guy off that cross! Whats wrong with you people, leaving him up there to die?”
Further proof of Occam’s Razor.
Jesus basically committed suicide… isn’t that a sin?
My answer to the original question: As an atheist, I would not try to save Jesus – it would be too dangerous with all the Roman soldiers and the masses that wanted him dead around. In addition: he wanted it – so why bother? BUT: I would try to stop S/Paul from “inventing” Christianism, because I’m sure he is the most responsible person for bringing this religion into being. (Of course, there would still be more left to fight against – some 3′000 or so …)
But I have another point here to ask if Christians come around and try to “convince” me of their faith: I would ask them “When did you have you last communion?”
Usually, the answer should be like “some days ago”
So, then my next question would be: “So, then you should remember how human flesh and human blood taste? – Please tell me!”
Because during the process of the “transsubstantiation of the body” in EVERY holy mass, a dry cake is transformed into human flesh (Jesus is cited in the mass’s text with the words: “Hoc es corpus meus” = This is my flesh.) and red wine is transformed into human blood, that of Jesus too.
And because “we all know” (or at least the Christians) that Jesus was the Son of God AND a living HUMAN BEING at the same time – then, what Christians eat and drink during the mass are REAL human flesh and REAL human blood!
So, if this is not gruesome cannibalism, I don’t know what is …
And THAT is enough for me to make the contact with Christians most disgusting: They are cannibals – and I don’t even want to toucht their hands or breathe the air in the same room with them.
“Would You Save Jesus From Murder, A Baffling Dilemma.”
No, it’s a stupid mental masturbation.
Premise: I am not a christian.
The logic of this artificial “dilemma” is flawed like all the others of this species. It starts from false premises [What if you could...- no, you can not, and there is no conjuncture of events that could in any way allow this to happen].
From false premises, everything can follow, and nothing has sense.
Ahh, the Cristian intellect as only a Christian can postulate. How can you hope to ever understand the mind of god? Do you believe that you can elevate you knowledge to a level that you could begin to comprehend a deity that could create the entire cosmos. Man I would like to take you all bowling
Well, getting back to the hypothetical statement of: “If you COULD successfully rescue Jesus from a fate on the cross, would you?” one DOES have to ask if you were given this unique power and opportunity, wouldn’t THAT be the will of God?
I also contend that your premise is flawed. It ignores the “grandfather paradox” entirely. I exist today because Jesus died. I would therefore be unable to ’save’ Jesus and maintain this reality. In some other reality, it is likely that Jesus would have been murdered at some other circumstance, making my heroic saving of him in AD33 of this reality irrelevent.
The relationship between the Creator and the Sinner produces a separation between them. Jesus offered himself to repair that relationship. If I return to AD33 and modify the outcome of that single day, there is still the need for the sacrifice, which Jesus offered. The sacrifice would still happen, it simply would happen at another time. To follow your theory, I would have to “save” Jesus an infinite number of times, and that reality would look nothing like the one we are in.
Your premise focuses on the statement “if you could..”, but the only way to do such is to elevate yourself to the position where you could alter reality… Only one being has that ability, and he was the one on the cross.
So, sure.. if I could become god, then I could/would save Jesus, even to the point of sacrificing myself. Oh, wait.. that was the point.. it’s about SACRIFICE.. Jesus was/is God, and could have saved himself, but he chose not to. ss
Here’s how I see it: The will of God, that is, the will of that which or who was before there was anything else, is that all be one. How we become that one is through our plan–God has no specific, detailed or controlling plan. We are free.
Further how I see it: Jesus didn’t just die for our sin. Sin is anything that stands in the way of communion – oneness in being. By living in total communion with all that is, and showing us how to to the same, Jesus taught the option of living free from sin. Jesus’ life was for our sin–to show us how to move beyond it. Death is among the experiences of life. Jesus died because that’s what people do, and so even if saved from crucifixion, he would have eventually died in some way.
The best thing about this post is that I finally learned that atheists try to make arguments that are every bit as stupid as believers – and are equally convinced that their failed attempts at logic are devastatingly effective.
And they are also willing to retreat to ad hominem attacks when their failed logic is exposed.
It’s just part of the human condition, I suppose, and as a species we’ll never overcome it. The only good thing here is that it reminds me that I need not bother explaining to someone who is wrong WHY they are wrong; they just don’t want to – and will NOT – hear it.
The best thing about this post is that I finally learned that atheists try to make arguments that are every bit as stupid as believers – and are equally convinced that their failed attempts at logic are devastatingly effective.
And they are also willing to retreat to ad hominem attacks when their failed logic is exposed.
It’s just part of the human condition, I suppose, and as a species we’ll never overcome it. The only good thing here is that it reminds me that I need not bother explaining to someone who is wrong WHY they are wrong; they just don’t want to – and will NOT – hear it.
I’m sorry, but the “God wouldn’t have let me save Jesus” response is really inadequate. Like ten other things in this discussion, this really reminds me of Life of Brian.
Jesus, the one man suicide squad!
“Out of my way, Semites! My mission of self-destruction shall not be interfered with!”
Jesus visiting Earth just to get himself deliberately killed… that was his plan to save us? Great plan, genius! Why didn’t you just fucking save us already and skip the absurd and pre-ordained stage-show?
“Hi, I’m the son of God, and I’m here to save you, but before I can do it, you’ve gotta drive some nails into me. Yup, it’s weird, I know, but that’s how I roll: No nails, no salvation! No assholes, I’m not gonna save you until I see hear some fucking hammering! Why? Shuddup, that’s why!”
This reminds me of a star trek convention. People are debating the possibilities of fiction
“Vulgarity is for people who don’t think very much.” — GAIL
This is a regurgitated statement, with no logical basis. Vulgarity can easily be used as a tool to provoke thought.
“As for the validity of Athemism: this is just a form of denial because somewhere, sometime you go got upset or got your feelings hurt. So now you rationalize your negativity by being critical of anyone who doesn’t agree with you.” — GAIL
I have no idea what Athemism is. If you’re referring to atheism, it’s perfectly valid, as it is our natural state. Abstaining from a belief that lacks ample evidence is completely rational. Your counter-argument attempts to apply a specific example to a huge population, and is analogous to an atheist claiming that all theists are what they are because an authority figure conditioned them to believe. Ludicrous.
Additionally, monotheists exercise an abridged form of atheism, in that they deny the existence of all gods, save one, so do not forget that your ‘positive’ affirmation of the existence of YHWH is a ‘negative’ denial of hundreds upon thousands of possible other deities to whom any multitude of other people may be wholly devoted.
“God is real and loves all of you. However; he has also given us all the right to choose. If you don’t believe then that’s your problem not God’s and not true Christians.” — GAIL
Claptrap. Substantiate.
Regarding the Beethoven scenario presented further up the thread, allow me to present: http://www.snopes.com/glurge/twoquestions.asp.
“The best thing about this post is that I finally learned that atheists try to make arguments that are every bit as stupid as believers – and are equally convinced that their failed attempts at logic are devastatingly effective.” — Pagani
There are morons in every culture, subculture and counter-culture. The lack of critical thinking skills exhibited by any member of a given group does nothing to condemn the group as a whole.
Concerning the original question of the post — I would require that the individual posing the question adequately demonstrate that the individual in question was, in fact, executed and that it was done to an undeserving party, especially if we aren’t going back to undo any number of atrocities committed in the history of our planet, any one of which would be a greater pursuit than flying back to save some guy who may or may not have existed and may or may not have been crucified, despite omission by every contemporary historical record of which we know, and of which the Gospels are not (written at least two decades — probably more — after the alleged event).
It’s a really good question. And funny. But I think you have to think about a couple of things: Jesus said in the gospel of John, I’m laying my life down of my own accord – no one is taking it from me – and I will take my life up again. So in one sense, since he was offering up his life of his own accord, you couldn’t go back and stop him, because you’d be trying to stop God from doing what he wanted to do.
Also, it’s a question of if it makes sense on a moral level to stop a person from voluntarily suffering for a short while when their goal is to eventually end the suffering of billions. The goal Christ was achieving was a restoration of life for himself and all who trusted in him. It’s not a strictly selfish act to let God do what he wants. In view of the 2 great commandments of Jesus, “Love God and love your neighbor”, going back to stop Jesus would be going against God and going against all the other people (besides the time traveller) who would be benefited by God’s plan.
So again, a funny question. It’s definitely a good question to get insight into Christian belief too.
Unfortunately this dilemma is flawed.
You ask if you were there knowing then what you know now, and knowing you could with certainty save him would you?
This is an impossible scenario to a believer. The believer believes that what took place was the will of God, it was the plan. No man could possibly stop the event from turning out the way it did.
So if a believer went back and knew then what they know now, they would not know they could save him. They would “know”/believe that it was impossible, because they believe…
Of course you wouldn’t save Christ from the cross, silly atheist.
On the night Christ was arrested, Christ foretold that St. Peter, who loved him more than any of the other disciples, that Peter would deny he even knew Christ, rather than come to His defense. Of course, Peter protested when Jesus said this, but that’s what he went on and did — deny he even knew who Jesus was.
And so here you’re saying that despite the fact you hate Christ (or allegedly just don’t believe in Him, okay) you would actually RESCUE Him from the cross if you had the chance, even though St. Peter didn’t even have the moral courage to do that? Yeah, right.
I bet you 1 Gogol million dollars that time travel cannot be achieved by human means and science will never succeed at this.
HERE IS SCENARIO FOR YOU:
If you died tonight and saw the Glory of God with your own eyes, mind, soul and being and without ANY shred of a doubt you know you are standing in front of your Creator and the Maker of the Universe just as described in the Bible…
…and you had a chance to come back and tell people about what you saw.
Wouldn’t it drive you nuts that people would call you crazy and delusional even though you know they are all wrong?
Think about it. Brother.
I bet you 1 Gogol million dollars that time travel cannot be achieved by human means and science will never succeed at this.
HERE IS SCENARIO FOR YOU:
If you died tonight and saw the Glory of God with your own eyes, mind, soul and being and without ANY shred of a doubt you know you are standing in front of your Creator and the Maker of the Universe just as described in the Bible…
…and you had a chance to come back and tell people about what you saw.
Wouldn’t it drive you nuts that people would call you crazy and delusional even though you know they are all wrong?
Think about it. Brother.
The whole ‘going back in time’ thing rather screws this up.
If I had lived back in 0 A.D. or whatever, having never experienced anything in the 20th or 21st century, I would totally have tried to save him!
No one could have really messed up God’s plans. I mean, this was THE BIG SHABANG! God probably wouldn’t risk the world’s salvation on the hope I would let Jesus die.
If I DID manage to pull it off, obviously the world’s salvation did not hinge on me saving Jesus or not.
Wow! I stumbled upon this blog and am pretty amazed at the responses to your writing – from both sides. It is certainly evident that despite one’s beliefs- Christs’ work on the cross (even thousands of years later) was big enough to create this kind of dialogue on an atheists blog. That in itself is pretty amazing. And I think I make comment 116?
Wow – what heartless n00bs would not save the poor bastard? Jeebus!
PS: And yes, bastard is correct – Mary wasn’t married to god, was she?
I think the answer is easy for those of us that study the Bible; I imagine myself in Peter's position, wanting to stop the execution of someone you love, but being rebuked by Jesus for it.If I could stop it, I probalby would, BUT I know through the Bible that Jesus said no one can take his life but he offers it up freely. He does this so that He, the second Adam, was able to live sinlessly & thus be a worthy offering for our sins. But the sacrifice wasn't just his LIFE here, it was much more than that, and that is the part that I used to not understand when I used to think in my head, wondering if I could make the sacrifice Jesus did, dying in the place of another. He did WAY more than that. Something only He could. Read Major Ian Thomas, The Mystery of Godliness.
Back to the original question: “Knowing what I know now” would I save Him? Uh… Yeah. If knowing I could potentially prevent millions of murders by preventing one, you bet I would. The main reason I left religion behind was the duplicity in the love everyone (as long as their Christian).
The death and destruction that has been wrought in the name of God over the past 1000 years (don’t argue for 2000 not much happened that first millennium) is absolute insanity.
Even today the churches codify themselves to keep out gays and any other groups they deem less than godly while trying to lift themselves up by sending pittances to 3rd world countries. They are like sounding gongs.
I believe Jesus lived, but was a wise man, a prophet if you will. Sadly, Christianity does not follow in his footsteps.
Hi there. For those who commented on my blog entry, thanks for all the comments. I’ve learned a lot from you guys. Like I always say, it’s a journey and the journey’s more rewarding if I get to see both sides of the coin. Just my answers to some comments, by the way:
1.) My personal challenge is to expand my definition of God to something more than what we normally conceive God to be (as taught by our religions e.g. God is a supernatural entity etc.). Right now, I’m equating God to a way of life, centered upon certain principles. I’m trying to study Heidegger because his thoughts have a bearing on what I want to do. Anyway, I’m a work in progress.
2.) Maybe later, I can discuss Jesus Christ in my blog (I’m still forming my thoughts though) and why the miracles are but mere distractions to the message itself.
3.) I don’t really place much emphasis on the Old Testament. Furthermore, I guess when it comes to believing or not believing, we must start from the heart (where the issue really has bearing), the “emotions/feelings”, and go on from there. Some might argue that this is a logical fallacy but I believe in every discussion about God, this must be take into account as it is an important component. Clearly, there’s got to be a new way of intelligently discussing God while considering this human aspect.
Thanks again!
Hi there. For those who commented on my blog entry, thanks for all the comments. I’ve learned a lot from you guys. Like I always say, it’s a journey and the journey’s more rewarding if I get to see both sides of the coin. Just my answers to some comments, by the way:
1.) My personal challenge is to expand my definition of God to something more than what we normally conceive God to be (as taught by our religions e.g. God is a supernatural entity etc.). Right now, I’m equating God to a way of life, centered upon certain principles. I’m trying to study Heidegger because his thoughts have a bearing on what I want to do. Anyway, I’m a work in progress.
2.) Maybe later, I can discuss Jesus Christ in my blog (I’m still forming my thoughts though) and why the miracles are but mere distractions to the message itself.
3.) I don’t really place much emphasis on the Old Testament. Furthermore, I guess when it comes to believing or not believing, we must start from the heart (where the issue really has bearing), the “emotions/feelings”, and go on from there. Some might argue that this is a logical fallacy but I believe in every discussion about God, this must be take into account as it is an important component. Clearly, there’s got to be a new way of intelligently discussing God while considering this human aspect.
Thanks again!
I just want to commend BGH and everyone who has replied for being part of a thought-provoking discussion. This was a great Sunday morning read.
At first I was thinking the author meant would we save Christ from murder “today”. Meaning someone, somewhere is quite confident “they” are Jesus (i.e. David Koresh). In this case we know what we would do to a self-appointed messiah. And we are pretty sure what has been done to Christ-like figures (i.e. MLK). But, it’s not surprising what we would do to a poor, black Palestinian who would rally against power in the name of the world’s weak and poor. But then again, isn’t the crucifixion what “God” wanted from his son? The same God that expected Abraham to kill his own son to show his love for God. The same God that pushed his followers to perpetrate genocide, war, rape, etc in his name. In fact I see a large dichotomy between the character of Jesus and the character of God – especially the Old Testament God. In the end, saving Christ from murder would be the Christian thing to do. God, being all powerful, could find easier ways to sacrifice for the evils of man-kind.
so he committed suicide right?
yep, from what I know. yes, yes he did.
yep, from what I know. yes, yes he did.
Just to be pedantic, but wasn’t Jesus actually EXECUTED by the Romans? I.e. legitimately killed and not “murdered”?
When I was a child I believed in God and Jesus and all that religious non-sense. Then in my early teens I discovered science, astronomy, and evolution and became an Atheist. In college I studied philosophy a realized that it extremely arrogant to profess as a fact that there is no god or creator being and redefined my views as Agnostic. However, during all of these prior periods in my life believed that Jesus in fact was an actual character in our history. Now in my mid 30’s I find myself studying History and I’m finding it difficult to believe that Jesus existed at all and that he’s not just a common mythological tale hijacked from other older religions. Christianity does like to borrow from other religions, look what they did with Easter and Yule.
He wasn’t murder as he didn’t die. I thought that was the point of the story. Pre judging is unscientific and leads to blocked thinking that only an open mind can unblock. If we reject religion and psychology then that’s one fifth of all the subjects in the library. What else don’t we believe in? Considering there is more we don’t know than we will ever know, it’s nice to not box ourselves in. Living in a box sounds kind of Fundy to me, but not much fun. I prefer the scientific method. Check out my website. Tell me if it isn’t pretty much all science. Truth is crazier than a mad hatter.
Occam’s razor is limited. We’ve always taken the easiest most obvious answer. To gravity, for instance, but it has changed I don’t know how many times. We can be more far sighted than that, by using intuition, not a male strong point, but the strong point of all the minds we call great. Considering how often our assumptions are wrong, dilemmas are more likely to be a proof, than an argument. A logical universe is cause and affect. You can’t have it both ways, emotion and logic, except by following the rules we are trying to find. I’d say we all have part of the solution and just refuse to put it all together. Whole brain thinking does put it all together, and that seems to be intuition, inspiration and revelation. Hm. The answer may be in the middle and on all sides. When you buy a car it has several sides, including an inside. Why do we always insist on one point of view. Oh, I know, we are babies in the game of truth. Even science says we have the emotional intelligence of a six year old. I think the intelligence, information, also. That should be the next discovery.
I’d rather burn in hell on my terms, than live in hell on any God’s terms. It is the exact sort of person that would stand by as murder was committed that allows millions of atrocities to go on daily with an assumed divine right.
“Then in my early teens I discovered science, astronomy, and evolution and became an Atheist. In college I studied philosophy a realized that it extremely arrogant to profess as a fact that there is no god or creator being and redefined my views as Agnostic.”
Atheism does not necessarily profess as fact that there is no god. It is simply not theism, which is to say, an atheist is any person who does not profess that there is a god.
One can be simultaneously atheist and agnostic, professing that there is no way to determine whether a god exists and therefore choosing to abstain from belief in any of the proposed options. Likewise, an atheist can be anti-theist and confidently declare that there is no god, but this vocal subset does not define the whole population.
“Then in my early teens I discovered science, astronomy, and evolution and became an Atheist. In college I studied philosophy a realized that it extremely arrogant to profess as a fact that there is no god or creator being and redefined my views as Agnostic.”
Atheism does not necessarily profess as fact that there is no god. It is simply not theism, which is to say, an atheist is any person who does not profess that there is a god.
One can be simultaneously atheist and agnostic, professing that there is no way to determine whether a god exists and therefore choosing to abstain from belief in any of the proposed options. Likewise, an atheist can be anti-theist and confidently declare that there is no god, but this vocal subset does not define the whole population.
I notice many of the X-tians in these posts protesting the premise by saying, “But Jesus WANTED to die!” May I point out that suicide is also a mortal sin in X-tianity?
The only dilemma I see is determining which is worse: the smug, ignorant atheist or the ignorant Christian.
I don’t really have much to add to this conversation here except I just wanted to say, “Great question!”
That is the wrong question. the real question is, “If God became a human being, could he avoid being murdered?” Presumably if God became human he would always tell the truth and anyone who speaks the truth to power is always in danger of being killed. As Einstein once observed, “Rulers maintain their power by telling their people lies and thus they are alway trying to see how much they can get away with.” Thus if Jesus were God it would be inevitable that he would be killed, even by those who profess to believe in him, because his followers love to exercise power over others as much as any other group and so would be threatened by a God incarnate who would always be telling them the truth that threatens their authority, the source of their power over others. Christians are themselves constantly getting this question wrong precisely because what they want from their faith in Christ is a justification of their right to exercise power of othters, not the Truth that would undermind that power.
Per Arvid’s comment, I agree and would like to expand a little. Inherent in this question is the presupposition that our one-time saving of Jesus from crucifixion would somehow save him forever. The crucifixion event was not the first time that the power elites tried to off Jesus; it was just the time that they were able to follow through. So sure, I would save him from that horrible death, but, as Arvid has pointed out, it would likely not do much good. His capture and execution had been put into motion by actions Jesus would not cease from doing and thus would end up hanged, stoned, or crucified regardless. My saving act would at best be a stall.
Nobody would have ever saved Him, even if you truly wanted to. When sentenced to death, there were many bystanders that either said nothing or went with peer pressure and actually said “crucify him!” Even Peter rejected Him three times when he said he wouldn’t. Our inherent sinful nature would have executed or at least rejected Jesus no matter what we think in retrospect. Don’t you think there were many in the crowds that regretted that day they sentenced Him to death? or did nothing to prevent it? *We are* those people in the crowd.
I JOSHUA a PROPHET OF JEHOVAH SAY THIS TO YOU FROM HIM HIMSELF.. THE GREAT “I AM” —”Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt of old time beyond the River, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nahor and they served other gods. When ye transgress the covenant of Jehovah your? God, which he commanded you, and go and serve other gods, and bow down yourselves to them then will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you” A CALL FROM JEHOVAH(by way of joshua(me(prophet) TO REPENT NOW.. elronhubird27@aol.com http://www.biblecodewisdom.com
Yawn . . . speaking as one Christian, I don’t find this in the least baffling.
My simple answer is, I would never go back in time and rewrite history. To do so would itself be immoral and presuming take the pen from the author of history and rewriting it to my own liking (as if I could do better). Claiming such sovereignty would be claiming my own deity . . . which is, of course, the core temptation in the Eden scenario.
I’m curious why the author of this cute little hypothetical would focus solely upon the injustice of Jesus’ crucifixion? Why would he be any less culpable for selectively rescuing “the poor b*stard in a heartbeat” while ignoring the millions of other injustices occuring throughout human history? Would it be moral to go throughout time and just start patching up every unjust occurence you deem worthy?
A man dives into an icy river to rescue several people in an airplane accident, and sacrificially dies in the process. Maybe you could do a better job than the availed forces around to rescue him? Or maybe you could prevent him from going in in the first place, since he is such a noble soul.
I have no qualms to morally insisting, “No.” And it’s a shame his opponents don’t seem to see the logical reasoning. This is far from a difficult problem, not to mention a hypothetical fallacy on the order of God creating a rock too big for him to lift.
Sorry . . . unimpressed.
I say we should not and cannot save him. an example of this is found in Matthew 16:20-23. In these passages, Peter a disciple of Jesus rebukes Jesus for saying that he will die and in three days rise again. It’s so ironic I found this because I am doing a biblical Exegesis paper on a very similar topic. When Peter rebukes him, Jesus tells hims “to get behind him Satan”, a response he used to the devil. ” The devil has influenced this world so deeply that the world’s values are quite often the devil’s values (Jas 3:15; 4:7); by valuing the things human beings value (like lack of suffering), Peter shows himself in league with the devil.” Peter wanted to save Jesus, and if Jesus had listened to him, perhaps he would have saved Jesus from crucifixion. But one cannot have salvation without the cross, and Jesus knew that. So there is really no way he could have been saved. He would have accomplished no end, except for being a really unique guy with fiery sermons, and nice heart. Which then would make someone like Martin Luther King Jr. a Jesus. Which is ridiculous.:)
I hope that made any sense. I’m a sixteen year old student, and I am just beginning to sink my teeth into this. I find it so absolutely amazing and fascinating.
Can we go back in time and abort Jesus instead?